TGCCC Adopted Minutes 12 April 2010
TERMINALS GEELONG
COMMUNITY CONSULTATIVE COMMITTEE
Adopted Minutes of the Meeting
Held in the Meeting Room, Corio Library, Norlane
Monday 12th April, 2010
Present:
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Chair |
Robin Saunders |
| Community Representatives |
Greg Postuma John Wilson Pam Edwards Peter Linaker Bill Aitken Suz Kelly-Turner Sue McLean Jo Cicero Ralph Taylor Catherine Jones |
| Terminals Pty Ltd |
George Horman Gary O'Sullivan Carlo Fasolino Geoff Millard |
| CoGG | Lyndon Ray |
| Geelong Grammar School | Mark Yeates |
| Environment Protection Authority |
Kerry Murphy Rachel Murphy Cheryl Bagatol |
| Country Fire Authority |
Bob Smith Ian Beswick |
| ITEM 1. WELCOME BY CHAIR | |
| Robin | Particular welcome to Sue McLean whom has had a particular tough time of late and has made a good effort on behalf of the community representatives, and thanks for attending tonight. |
| Advised that the taping of minutes would no longer happen, and sought any comment from members. There being no comment, the meeting proceeded without any taped record. | |
| ITEM 2. APOLOGIES & CONFIRMATION OF DRAFT AGENDA |
| Apologies | Coralie Jenkin, Franceska Desalak |
| Agenda | Adopted |
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| ITEM 10. CONFIRMATION OF THE DRAFT MINUTES OF THE MEETING HELD ON 8 FEBRUARY 2010 | |
| Robin |
This item was dealt with prior to Item 3 as Cheryl had not yet arrived at meeting. Concerning the lengthy comments from Sue McLean, what is now presented is what was agreed between Bruce Turner and Sue (in large type). |
| George | Page 5 - amend the large type statement by George to "Terminals had some reservations about the content of tables" |
| Robin |
Page 8 - Action 43/10 - Delete "Following their meeting with the Port Environs Advisory Committee, community members to consider whether they wish to provide further comment to the Committee via the Chair (Sue McLean to coordinate)" and "This is not my recollection??? The Action Item was from my recollection" and also delete "(BT - I recorded that community members can write through the Chair if they wish, but that given they had yet to meet the Adv Cttee, and in Robin's absence, it was not resolved that they definitely would!)"
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| Action 43.10 will now read "the committee resolved that a letter be sent on behalf of the community members. Terminals expressed no view on this matter" | |
| Ralph Taylor to be added to the attendees list. | |
| George | Items 5 and 9: remove item in brackets |
| Robin | Draft minutes adopted with the above agreed changes. |
| ITEM 3 PRESENTATION AND DISCUSSION, CHERYL BATAGOL, CHAIR EPA. | |
| Cheryl | Was lovely to have received an invitation. I am planning to visit as many community meetings across Victoria as I can. |
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I am interested in getting feedback from you and sharing it with the Executive. We will be focussing on "where to from here' in our strategic plan thinking. |
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Since the 1980's I have been involved in community issues. I worked in a family owned waste treatment plant in Dandenong, we opened a medical waste treatment plant, where the South Dandenong community became involved. My attitude was that with 120 employees, I didn't understand the role of the community. I briefed a barrister to represent my company at the VCAT hearing over the licence. The only attendees to attend all ten days of the hearings were Stuart and Jean Marriner, and myself. By the end of the hearings we were sharing lunch together and I could understand their fears about what they didn't know or understand. I then had discussions with Tony Meek at EPA who changed the way I thought and acted regarding my local community. I spent a lot of time getting industry in Dandenong together to talk to the community. In the mid 1990's we sold the company to Brambles. I have spent a lot of time since then working in the space between industry and community. I have tried to bridge that gap with better understanding between industries and their local communities and I have tried to demonstrate to industry the advantages of having a good working relationship in the community and being a good neighbour. |
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Communities have a right to know and a right to understand. Communities have a right to have their say about their neighbourhood and their environment. The environment is critical and community is critical to achieving better environmental outcomes. |
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Community members have told me that they feel that EPA has abandoned the community. The perception of the EPA withdrawing from communities and abandonment of communities is incorrect. John Merritt has the same view on this as I do. If we go back to Environment Protection Act, Principle L, Section 1 of the Act (Principle of Accountability) "The aspirations of the people of Victoria for environmental quality should drive environmental improvement." We hold that very dear and it is clear that EPA is accountable to the community through this principle. Its I s also clear that we must understand the aspirations of Victorians for their environment and so engagement with communities must be part of our everyday activities. Through my discussions with Kerry I perceive that there has been a significant misunderstanding between TGCCC and the EPA.. Our role is to support CLC's through information and advice. CLC's should be engaged by industry. The EPA should be here to answer questions and respond to community concerns. It is also a way of understanding the aspirations of that particular community. We therefore hold dear communities understanding industry and industry understanding communities and through that mechanism protection of the environment. Our mandate is to set standards, regulate against those standards and to help organisations to meet and exceed those standards. In June you will have a presentation from Jason Borg about the EPA being a "Modern Regulator". We will be transparent, energetic, strong, consistent, decisive and fair. As we move through these changes you will see the EPA become a modern regulator. We will develop a major 5 year strategic plan. The time for engagement on this will be over the next year. How can we work better with you, how we measure our performance, and how should we report to you? These are questions we will seek responses from you and other communities. We now have a compliance framework and our approach to compliance is formulated by the Compliance Framework (hand out distributed showing the EPA's new approach to compliance). Our job is to protect and care for the environment. |
| Cheryl | Then talked the committee through the Compliance Framework handout. |
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Only about 5% of companies set out to not comply. We have to deal with that 5% very efficiently. We will publish results, and we will be consistent across all industries and we will take swift action on all non compliances. Unless we work effectively on that top 5% we are creating distortions in the market place, those organisations competitors who do comply and cannot compete with the cutting of corners and not obeying the law. If we are not efficient in addressing non-compliance, we are encouraging non-compliance by others (industries watch what their competitors are doing). We do set the standards and regulate towards those standards. The centrepiece to the EPA is the "Compliance Framework". We would appreciate any feedback on the Compliance Framework. Cheryl also quoted details of a recent enforcement action where the holder of a licence to store dry cleaning waste greatly exceeded the licence volume limit, and finally abandoned the premises (which were owned by a third party). The licencee was found personally guilty, and made to pay the EPA costs, and clean-up costs. As far as we are aware this is the first time clean up costs have been awarded against a company or individual. We are trying to move people down the triangle of compliance, from "Decide not to comply" to "Consistently do the right thing" which can mean going beyond compliance. The Compliance Framework is often seen as EPA's business model. |
| Robin | Cheryl, your presentation has been valuable in setting out your own background and where you see EPA having its focus. |
| John Wilson | One of the problems the community faces is that the weight of EPA concern is not very high. We often get a legal view of matters raised by the community, rather than an understanding of the concerns of the community. |
| Cheryl | The EPA relies on the law, our Act for protection but need to move beyond black letter law and to work together. Evidence from the community (who may be professionals or experts) can be a very good contribution, but are often not given equal weight when judged against expert evidence. This is often not seen as justice by the community or individual involved. The best environmental and just outcomes I have ever seen is where industries have cooperated with the community, working together to express and allay concerns, improving environmental outcomes as a result. |
| Peter |
Welcomed Cheryl and stated that the committee was privileged to have her attend and present. He hoped we could maintain an open channel. Appreciate staff coming to on-going meetings. At the VCAT hearing for Butadiene for EPA witnesses had a contradiction of information provided (confusing ppm with ppb). The figures were produced at the last minute when they should have been produced 2 weeks earlier. The EPA has to do much better than this. With the proposed take over of the Port planning by the Minister for Planning, the community would have less say. The proposed Northern Water Plan is now with the CoGG and will go to the EPA for approval. The reservations we have are the general information in it is not good. Barwon Water will do the sewerage treatment and give recycled water to the Shell refinery to use-this process needs some oversight. The consultants first told us that open lagoons would be used, and that upset conditions would be rare. Now the proposal has been changed to send water to the sewer. We the community would like to encourage the EPA to consider what is really going on to ensure that the community is not being disturbed. Northern Water Plant is taking over the management of the project. I think that the plant should handle all of the waste. We understand that a 20B conference is proposed by EPA, which we think is a very good thing. |
| Cheryl | I was not aware of the butadiene monitoring problem. We will take on notice the Butadiene incident. With regard to the water plant there will be formal community engagement with that project. |
| John Wilson | The weight of evidence from the community can be quite great as they come from chemical backgrounds. We know how industry think that they have the right to do it as they are providing jobs, but that is not so. |
| Sue McLean | I support emphasis on the basic principles enumerated in the Environment Protection Act. I am disappointed by the loss of staff with a technical background by EPA. I don't understand how the EPA is currently assessing those industries for non compliance, with the introduction of client managers to improve service to its clients. Where is the expertise in EPA to do the assessment- EPA has needed to go outside its own staff to gain particular expertise for the waste sites at Cranbourne and Dandenong. So funding and staffing levels are the issue that I'd like to understand better. From a community perspective it's a sad indictment on EPA when an objective is to "Enhance EPA's Reputation". What currently is being done in identifying non compliances? For example, a Clean Up Notice was issued to a facility in September last year yet there is still no action? What bothers me is whether there is sufficient expertise in the EPA. |
| Cheryl |
I understand your concern about the current objective in our strategic plan which says we will enhance our reputation, which I feel it is repugnant to me too - as a stand alone objective. Our reputation will be enhanced if we do our job - to reduce emissions impacts and improve resource efficiency, it won't come as a result of having a target in the 5 year plan! The Compliance Framework provides an understanding of the EPA's approach to compliance. We are currently going back and reviewing all outstanding notices and actively resolving to finalise and close out issues. I cannot walk away from the fact that we have many notices that are outstanding. The illegal disposal of asbestos at a site in Geelong is on our active list, and it is a serious case that we are working on daily. Client Managers have no role in compliance-they will have a good relationship with industry and are not appropriate people to do compliance. Compliance blitzes are being undertaken. We are a monopoly environmental regulator and we have to do our job. The EPA has separate enforcement and compliance teams to the Customer Relationship teams. Sometimes with the non compliant sites we must rely on the community and their competitors to let EPA know of any noticed non-compliance. EPA has some improving to do. The technical skills are there (Kerry, we could give a profile of our technical people to this committee at the next meeting). The things Sue McLean has raised are at the heart of my concerns. I hope to be able to come back in five years and to have you acknowledge that we have moved substantianlly towards those goals. I invite you to hold me accountable. |
| Sue McLean | Its disappointing to see that the 24 hour Pollution Watch phone line has been removed. If you ring that number after 10 pm you get a recording advising you to call the police or to leave a message, which often results in no feedback to the caller. I'd recommend that you change this immediately. |
| Cheryl | Thank you Sue for raising this issue and this is not the first time I have had this said to me. I have raised the issue and am waiting on a report back from John Merritt. |
| ACTION ITEM | Cheryl to provide advice to TGCCC on the action taken by EPA following consideration of the review of the 24 hour watch line by John Merritt. |
| Sue McLean | If we do not have a system in place where action is taken immediately the evidence might be gone by the morning. |
| Cheryl | I do get messages from our Response Team in the early hours of the morning. |
| Robin | When you receive information from John Merritt can you please notify Kerry so she can pass onto the committee? |
| ACTION ITEM | Kerry to provide advice to TGCCC on the action taken by EPA following consideration of the review of the 24 hour watch line by John Merritt. |
| Catherine | We used to have a meeting with the EPA once a month but these meetings have been stopped. |
| Sue Kelly Turner | The meetings were a very good liaison tool and were very beneficial to the EPA. |
| Cheryl | I am not sure why the meetings were disbanded. We lost some staff at Geelong. I will take the matter of broader regional community engagement under consideration during the development of our 5 year plan. |
| ACTION ITEM | Kerry to provide advice to TGCCC on the status of regional meetings between EPA and community group representatives. |
| Bill | Why does the EPA always go to the lower court? Why hasn't the EPA gone to the next step and taken matters to the higher court? I'm mystified why a company with seven breeches is fined only $4000. |
| Cheryl | I can't tell you, I'm not a lawyer. But I'll come back to you on that. |
| ACTION ITEM | Kerry to report back with information on why the EPA goes to the lower court. |
| Cheryl | I have a great deal of confidence in Kerry to carry the voice of the community into EPA and how we can be accountable. There are issues of the past here-we need to learn from them but leave them behind. |
| Peter | Chemical Safety Notice to go out to the community. Should it explode it is the CFA's policy that CFA not use sirens but we think there should be an audible alarm. We'll send a copy of the letter to EPA. |
| George | Using the term "we" as a collective is incorrect, it should be just you. |
| Robin | Thanked Cheryl for her attendance. |
| Cheryl | Appreciated the opportunity and give my undertaking to attend another meeting. |
| ITEM 4 TERMINALS ACCREDITED LICENCE - PROGRESS REPORT | |
George |
No correspondence received, and there has been no progress. Terminals is being bypassed and shunned. |
Robin |
I will send on any information I receive to everyone. |
Kerry |
We've had correspondence from the community and provided responses to questions in letters dated 23 February 2010 and 29 March 2010.. |
Robin |
I understood that the EPA focus on issuing the accredited licence was the facility performance. What stage is EPA at, where are they heading? When is the EPA going to say they have enough information regarding performance to make a decision? |
Kerry |
EPA has advised that it will let the community know their decision. |
George |
I do not understand why the 2nd stage of the mediation did not proceed. The 2nd part of mediation was to do with discussing the draft licence conditions. Nothing to do with the EPA. It has been 2 months since we had the first meeting. |
Robin |
George would you like us to organise a meeting date for the 2nd mediation? |
Sue Kelly Turner |
Can the next meeting be held in Geelong? |
Robin |
Are there a couple of dates to suggest for George to get back to Tim Offor? |
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4, 5 and 6 May were suggested. George will ascertain Tim's availability. Community representatives to find out their availability dates and advise Robin. |
Ralph |
What is the EPA's view on the GCCC's comments. |
Sue McLean |
As far as I am concerned the community has not given a final submission to the EPA. |
Robin |
Following on from Ralph's comment, could the EPA update the draft accredited licence to reflect the communities changed conditions? George has put a view that the mediation is separate to the EPA. Trying to get the interaction between Terminals and the Community back on track. |
George |
We have an accrediting authority that will make a decision from the policies and procedures and community input. |
Kerry |
Letter from Tony Robinson said the information should be submitted in 30 days but we at the EPA are not going to rush the submission. |
John Wilson |
Not having the EPA provide any input into the licence may man we are wasting a lot of time. If we had some guidance from the EPA we could possibly speed up the process. |
Joe |
Tony Robinson should not be drawn into the process. |
| ITEM 5. EMERGENCY COMMUNICATION - Further discussion of material tabled on 31 August 2009 meeting (Peter Linaker) | |
Peter |
No comments have been received. Are we acting in the public interest and do we involve the agencies, CFA, CofGG, EPA, Worksafe, Vic Police, Paramedics, DHS? |
Robin |
My own anxiety is we may get a response to say that this is none of our business. Are you willing to run that gauntlet? |
Peter |
Yes I am |
Gary |
The Emergency Exercises that Terminals' participate in, the CFA are the leading agency. They have a copy of our Emergency Plan. They bring the other relevant authorities in as needed. They are the controlling body (except for Terrorism). Already in existence and covered by a specific plan. |
Sue Kelly Turner |
There are a number of sirens overseas that operate. |
Robin |
Another approach is to write to the CFA |
Peter |
I feel it would be much better to contact everyone on that list. |
George |
Terminals' does not support the proposal for a general siren for the area, and would not operate it. If a siren goes off it does not discern what it goes off for. |
Bill |
There is an emergency process that is taken by the council. Can Lyndon take a letter from the committee to that meeting? Can Steve put up an item to the CoGG emergency management meeting highlighting how TGCCC would like to proceed? |
Lyndon |
There are such meetings that are attended by all the authorities concerned, and by Kevin Guard and myself. The letter needs to go to Kevin. The over-riding thing is the control imposed by State legislation. |
ACTION ITEM |
Robin to review documents with Peter and draft a letter to be sent to the emergency autorities. Kevin Guard might do some co-ordination behind the scenes to present the letter at such a meeting. |
ITEM 6. CHEMICAL SAFETY PUBLIC NOTICE (Peter Linaker) | |
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This item was discussed as part of Item 5. |
ITEM 7. HAZOP REPORT (Peter Linaker) - already circulated, report to be noted. | |
Peter |
15 people were present and the HAZOP went for a day and a half. Joe Cicero also attended |
ITEM 8. FORMAL TABLING OF ANNUAL REPORTS (Carlo) | |
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Robin |
Expect to have the reports on the website (with al Appendices for 06-07, 07-08, and 08-09) within a day or so. The documents were formally tabled by Terminals, and received by the Committee In future years I would like Terminals to present the report (and then I will put the report and full appendices on the TGCCC website) at the statutory time of submission I will endeavour to have an agenda item at the relevant meeting. |
ITEM 9. NEW PLANNING APPLICATIONS (Carlo) | |
George |
Nothing to report, copy of AVGAS presentation emailed. Happy for Robin to email to committee members and put on website. The application has not been lodged yet. |
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UAN advertised in The Advertiser. Similar tankage to Bio diesel. |
Robin |
Is there any particular concern by the community members on the UAN storage? |
George |
It is water based and safe. |
Gary |
52% water |
Sue McLean |
Some were concerned by the application being altered from bio diesel to fertiliser. |
Robin |
I think that the procedure by Terminals was seen by members as a bit of a short cut. |
George |
We talked to our planning consultant whom advised this was the best way we could do it. |
Robin |
Are there any strong community concerns regarding fertiliser? |
Sue McLean |
Emergency Access a concern. |
Gary |
Displayed a plan on overhead showing emergency access, and clarified that it was within Terminals present boundaries. |
George |
The product is in its own bund and tied in with the rest of the infrastructure. |
| Sue McLean | It is part of the City of Greater Geelong Environmental management Strategy Plan 2006 to oppose an extension of any chemical storage in Geelong. |
| Robin | As a good business manager you would be expect Terminals to follow up reasonable business opportunities. The important issue here is what the community representatives expect of Terminals at these meetings. |
| ITEM 11. BUSINESS ARISING FROM MINUTES. Review action list circulated. | |
| 42/3 | Letter to go to Chair of EPA regarding advice that officers will no longer attend TGCCC meetings. Received an email from Kerry saying the EPA completely withdraws from comments made indicating EPA non attendance at community meetings. Item completed. |
| 43/2 | Formally table the last three Annual Reports. Done 12/4/10 |
| 43/3 | Provide the requested Licence Reports to Sue McLean. Done 17/2/10. |
| 43/4 | Timing of EPA's response to questions tabled by Sue McLean. Done |
| 43/6 | Explanation of each proposed licence change. EPA thinks it has been done 23/2/10. |
| Robin | The letter is really just a commentary on questions asked. Would appreciate if Kerry passes onto the Statutory Facilitation that we need further clarification and amplification. |
| Sue McLean | Can we ask that he specifically go through each item? |
| 43/11 | Comments on EPA's activity report. No further discussion of the items listed was required. |
| Robin | Requested an update on the BASF isotainer 30A application from EPA. The whole matter is now between BASF and Worksafe. |
| ITEM 12. REPORTS FROM TERMINALS, EPA, CFA, CITY OF GREATER GEELONG | |
| TERMINALS | |
| Gary | Discussed Terminals Operations Report. Two operators resigned, and we are looking to replace them. |
| ENVIRONMENT PROTECTION AUTHORITY | |
| Kerry | Nothing further to report - circulated Activity Report (see Appendix) |
| CITY OF GREATER GEELONG | |
| Lyndon | Nothing to report. |
| ITEM 13. OTHER BUSINESS: Should we invite Jason Borg of EPA to present on Licence Reform at the June meeting? | |
| Robin | Jason Borg gave an extensive discussion at the CICCC meeting. Those draft minutes were circulated to the TGCCC. |
| ACTION ITEM | Sue to send out by mail to TGCCC draft minutes of the CICCC meeting. |
| Robin | Do you recall concern of MEK exceeding the licence limits? Jason Borg explained that a 30A application should have been raised. Jason Borg - Acting Manager of Licence Reform. Shall I invite him to the TGCCC meeting? |
| Kerry | Jason's normal job is Acting Director looking after the licence reform. |
| Robin | My thinking was yes now we have seen what he has to say we follow up with questions. Kerry would you ask Jason to attend? |
| Kerry | Yes. |
| Robin | I would encourage all members to look at the CICCC presentation. |
| Sue McLean | The community members' letters to be formerly tabled at this meeting. |
| Robin | Those letters and responses have been circulated to everyone. Note the letters to the EPA from the community and subsequent letters to the EPA and responses have been circulated and acknowledged. |
| Pam | Drew attention to the next meeting date (14 June) being Queens Birthday. The Committee decided to move the meeting to 7 June. |
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Meeting closed 7:30pm Next meeting will be held 7th June, 2010 at 3:30 for 4:00pm The 2010 meeting dates are: 9 August, 11 October, 13 December (Note: these dates are for the second Monday of the month.) | |
Appendix A EPA Activity Report
ACTIVITY REPORT FEBRUARY 2010 - APRIL 2010
TERMINALS PTY LTD - CORIO, GEELONG
CLIENT RELATIONSHIP MANAGER: MARC CASSANET |
General discussions with Terminals around various site activities |
STATUTORY ACTIVITIES |
Accredited Licence Application status EPA has received Submission to EPA (received 2 Jan 2010), Formally submitted questions to EPA from TGCCC (submitted 8 February 2010) and Outstanding responses required (10 March 2010). EPA has provided responses (29 March 2010 and 23 Feb 2010) to questions and has invited final comments on the 5 elements of the accredited licence within 30 days or two weeks of the final mediation session between community committee members and Terminals. EPA has not determined the application and awaits the final comments from the TGCCC community members and the report by the mediator. The final decision will rest with the Authority. 30 A approval for Butadiene storage EPA understands that BASF is consulting with WorkSafe regarding the management of this container of Butadiene. EPA is not involved in this matter at present. |
POLLUTION INCIDENTS AND REPORTS |
Community Reports to EPA Pollution Watch for Terminals Corio February 2010 - April 2010 = Nil community reports |
CCC ACTION ITEMS FOR EPA |
36/3 - EPA to provide an update at next meeting on accredited licence application status - see above 43/4 and 43/6 - questions to EPA on accreditation- response to questions provided 23 February 2010 |